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Washington Women’s Heritage Project records, 1900-2000 
University of Washington Libraries Special Collections 
Patricia Louise Butler 
May 3, 1992 
Cassette 3, Side 1 
 
 
Antoinette Johnson  00:02 
Interviewee, Patricia Louise Butler, May 3, 1992, tape number three, side one, Washington 
Women's Heritage Project, interviewed by Antoinette Johnson. The place of the interview is at 
Miss Butler's home in Seattle, Washington. Okay, how about early adulthood? What were your 
expectations about [?the future?]? 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  00:46 
[Inaudible] because I was making all my own clothes and I wanted to be a designer. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  00:49 
Yeah. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  00:49 
And if not a designer, I guess a window dresser, something like that. [Inaudible] but I did find 
out that if I could get to New York, maybe I could go to Parson's art college because it was 
connected to [?New York Youth?]. That was my goal.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  01:04 
Did you think about marriage and- 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  01:06 
That's what that [inaudible] did. [Inaudible], but I was planning on going to college. Since 
pregnancy came before I got to execute that, we went on with that, kept on working. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  01:29 
Were you and Jerome together at the time?  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  01:32 
Yeah, that was a [?mistake I met that man?]. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  01:34 
Oh, that's right, well, but you guys didn't get together until after high school, didn't you? 
 
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Patricia Louise Butler  01:39 
Yeah, we got together afterwards. [?If I?] hadn't had went back to [inaudible] and responded to 
his hello, I would have been a better person for it. Would have had less children, I would have 
had none. [?I would have been a total career girl?], but basically, it was okay. It wasn't okay at 
the time because I was very hostile about it, didn't get to do what I wanted to do. [Inaudible]. I 
mean, it was okay, none of the stuff they said it was. It was a bunch of hard work. And he was 
[?juggling?] wanting to be gone all the time, so that left the [inaudible] to raise the kids.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  02:24 
So you--  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  02:26 
He was good about the kids, but, I mean, I thought that [?it just was?] something you did 
together, like the books said, you know, all the time, and it isn't like that. I mean, little boys, 
when they're in their early life stage, they go out and play and leave you home to play with the 
dog-- the toys. And literally, that's exactly what it is. The boys go out to play, the girls stay home 
and raise the kids. That's it, that's what it is. And I wish [inaudible] [?with the kids. This is what 
the wonderful thing love is?]. And when the boy says they ain't ready to get married, that's why, 
they want to go out and play. Baseball, football, track and everything else. And that's what my 
husband used to do. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  03:11 
Go out and play.  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  03:12 
Go out and play. Baseball team, he was in. [Inaudible]. We raised the kids, and the kids were too 
little to go with him. We only had one car, and I couldn't drive.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  03:22 
How old were you guys back then, about then? 18, 19?  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  03:25 
19. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  03:26 
Boy, you couldn't drive at 19? 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  03:28 
No, ma'am, I'm from a family with no cars. And when my uncle did get a car, there was five 
girls, so you know, we weren't going to be driving the car. So I was used to [?busing it?] but I 
was a bold child, [?I'd take the man's car, used to steal his car?], finally I learned to drive it, self 
taught me. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  04:00 
What was your, what was your first job after you left home? 
 
Page 3 of 20 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  04:04 
The bank. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  04:06 
And how long did you work there? 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  04:07 
Well, I worked the bank straight out of high school. I went to work there in 1956. I got pregnant 
in '56 too. So yeah, that busted my bubble. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  04:21 
Did you still work there after you got pregnant? 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  04:24 
Mm-mm. That began my health career. So then, I worked at Providence. And then I worked at-- 
I went back to practical nursing, and then I went back to, I finished that, and I went back to 
Providence to work, and I went to Swedish to work, and then I went to Children's Orthopedic 
and became a surgical technician.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  04:41 
What prompted that?  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  04:52 
Well, when I went out to Children's, I always looked for, like I told you, where there's very few 
people that look like me. Think that area needs to always be infiltrated. [?And then they needed 
help?]. And when I did my internship for practical nursing, I only saw two brown faces out there 
in surgery at Children's Orthopedic. So when I heard there was an open, I knocked on the door 
and they [inaudible] me.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  05:18 
Really? 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  05:19 
Uh-huh, so I became a surgical technician.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  05:22 
Was that after you had your kids?  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  05:24 
Oh, yeah, the kids were five years old, six years old, seven-- Yeah, six, seven, eight, nine, 10.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  05:30 
How long did you stay home after you had your kids? 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  05:32 
Stay at home?  
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Antoinette Johnson  05:33 
Did you stay home at all?  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  05:37 
Yeah, I did, now that I think about it. I kept everybody else's kids in the apartment. I mean, I had 
a daycare center.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  05:41 
Yeah.  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  05:43 
I mean, Elsie went to work. She had to be at Firland's at six o'clock. So what she had to do was 
bring [?Muma?], if they call him, [?Muma?], downstairs to me. I had, I want to say, had about 
five kids I babysat, plus mine, in a one bedroom apartment. So it worked, I had a baby diaper 
service, and I kept all the diapers separate. I mean, basically, you know, since my aunt had five 
kids, I knew how to do that.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  06:10 
Yeah. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  06:10 
It was no problem.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  06:12 
Was it hard handling twins?  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  06:15 
Mm-mm. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  06:15 
You didn't think so? 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  06:16 
No, dear, I didn't think so. That was like just organizing and I liked to do that. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  06:24 
Really? 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  06:25 
Yeah.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  06:26 
But I mean, like feeding, and bathing, and that was a, that was a full time-- Wasn't that a full 
time job?  
 
Page 5 of 20 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  06:31 
Yeah, that was a full time job, they were crawling by the time-- Yeah, it was a full time job, but 
for some reason, it wasn't like it was hard. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  06:41 
Yeah. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  06:41 
Because my aunt had all those kids, so, I mean, I knew what was required. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  06:47 
Yeah. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  06:47 
And they were off the bottle, I mean, I was only buying one set of baby bottles-- 
 
Antoinette Johnson  06:47 
That was pretty-- 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  06:47 
--you know, and the kid gets only 12. And when they broke all up, that was the end of that, the 
end of bottles. I mean, with this feeding, and the eating, and the talking, I wasn't for dragging on. 
I mean, hurry up and get off of these diets and get potty trained, because I can't carry no two 
diaper bags. And I was little, 130 pounds, can't be bringing too much with me, and we didn't 
have a car. Oh no. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  07:17 
Two babies and two, two diaper bags?  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  07:19 
Oh no, you just get one large one and you're limited where you go. And when they learn to walk, 
and they say, "Up," I say, "[Inaudible]." And usually, if we have to go two different places, 
Jerome took one and I took the other.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  07:23 
That wasn't too bad. So what about [inaudible]? Where did you, what did you do after you 
started working at the hospital? How long did you work there? Yeah.  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  07:51 
[Inaudible]. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  07:51 
Really?  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  07:23 
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I got that job, and my job at the bank, through one of those hiring services. So I'm really [?not 
going to have a lot of luck there just"] going out and getting a job. [Inaudible] what did I do? The 
kids must have been five years old-- Oh yeah, I worked the day shift, I had a babysitter. Then 
they got to kindergarten age and Jerome worked days and I was working days, so that meant that 
we had to have some kind of a range. I went to a second, third shift, 11 to seven. I don't like that 
shift, I don't like it at all.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  08:46 
How long did you do that?  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  08:48 
Through kindergarten. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  08:49 
Oh, so you did it for quite a while. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  08:51 
One year. And then I went to Swedish Hospital. And I think I was working nights at Swedish 
because I couldn't get it at Providence. And then something opened up at Children's Orthopedic, 
that's when I [inaudible] my husband's car. He said, "Yeah, we can share the car," and when it 
came time for me to go to work that day, he said, "Well, you can't use the car, I need it." I said, 
"Well then, you need to be a full time home provider then, because I ain't catching the bus [?with 
children who are asleep?]." He gave me the keys to the car and I drove home that day on to work 
every day. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  09:23 
Who taught you how to drive? 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  09:33 
Me, I used to steal his car.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  09:35 
Oh [they laugh]. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  09:37 
And the man used to see me coming around the corner, you know, in the morning, he'd throw up 
both hands and jump out of the way, and then after a while, he told me, "Oh, very good, you 
drive car now, drive car." That's how I learned how to drive, I used to sneak the car early in the 
morning. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  09:55 
Scared of you.  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  09:57 
I told him I needed to drive.  
 
Page 7 of 20 
 
Antoinette Johnson  09:58 
You just got determined and decided you was gonna learn how to drive? 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  09:59 
Mm-hmm, and that's why [inaudible] so he gave me the keys because we didn't have a washer 
and a dryer and I had to go to the wash house to wash the clothes. And I was just down the block 
and around the corner, so he felt that was safe. But after that, honey, the man, went to California 
one time to see, was it a football game or, a jazz festival? The Monterey Jazz Festival. He left 
that car. He told me he was going to leave it with a friend, I said, "No, that's community 
property. Leave it." And something he said, "You can't drive." I said, "That's okay. If something 
happened to my children, I can get where I need to take them." So, he left the car. When he got 
back, honey, I had put 1000 miles on that car. I had a wonderful time. Women should never 
argue about their husbands [inaudible], okay? Just let them do it. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  10:48 
Especially if I can drive. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  10:50 
Yeah.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  10:52 
Did you, how was-- When you worked at the hospitals, did you find that the wages, the salaries 
they paid women were any different than--  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  11:00 
If I knew about it, right then I was interested in me. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  11:07 
Yeah. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  11:07 
In my salary, and getting it. I wasn't into the salary war because I wasn't [?thinking about it?]. 
And I wasn't being [inaudible]. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  11:07 
Yep, all you want to do is get your money.  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  11:21 
I wanted to take care of my family. [Inaudible]. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  11:21 
Yeah. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  11:21 
Now, I had gone back to school, so I was being paid the rate for what I was doing, which was my 
current rate. But I wasn't into politics before the rate had changed. That was my [inaudible] job. 
Page 8 of 20 
 
 
Antoinette Johnson  11:36 
When did you go back to school?  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  11:38 
Well I had to go to school for practical nursing. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  11:41 
Oh, that's right. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  11:42 
So, I really had gone to [inaudible] when I was working at Providence on the weekends. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  11:54 
So were you a nurse all this time, all during this time? 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  11:57 
Practical nurse. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  11:57 
Practical nurse? 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  11:58 
Yeah. So that was, I was being-- and practical nurses have the qualifications to work with 
surgery. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  12:05 
Mm-hmm. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  12:07 
So that was okay.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  12:08 
How'd you like it? 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  12:09 
[Inaudible], seemed exciting. Then I got tired of looking ugly all day. Because, you know, you 
gotta wear the scrub gown, and my head was so big with [?rows?], and I had to wear two caps. 
And then you had a mask on. And I was getting to that age where I was gaining weight, weight 
was a concern. So basically, I decided, time for another change.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  12:37 
How old were you then?  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  12:38 
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In my 30s I guess? No, was I in my 30s? Yeah, that was in the '60s, okay, so I must have been in 
my 30s.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  12:50 
So? 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  12:53 
Yeah, I guess I was. And I was feeling a need to go back to school to do something different, 
because I was tired of these [?hemostats?] and all those different instruments and being locked 
inside all day. So that's when I broke out into supervision.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  13:15 
Really? 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  13:15 
When I went to Odessa Brown, I moved into middle management.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  13:16 
How did you get that job?  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  13:17 
I saw these, was there, was only three blacks in surgery. So when I went down to lunch, I saw all 
of these people, and it was all black. And I thought, "What are we having in here?" So again, I 
got to checking it out. Why is there so many blacks in a situation where there's hardly ever? I 
found out my old city was employing people in health care, and I didn't qualify to be a health 
assistant, which they were, and they were doing the internship at Children's Orthopedic, but what 
they did have an opening for was their supervisor. And so I applied, and it took about three 
months [inaudible] before I got an interview, and then once I got an interview, there was another 
month before you got the second interview, and then I got the job.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  13:17 
Wow. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  13:17 
So that, that put me in middle management.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  13:17 
Who were you, what were you supervising?  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  13:17 
The health assistants I had seen at the hospital. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  13:17 
Wow, really? 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  13:17 
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Whoever heard of hiring health assistants and no supervisor? They had an education coordinator, 
and they thought she was going to do the supervision of their work. She said that wasn't what she 
was hired for. So they created my job, and I was glad to have it. They put me in middle 
management, and with that, they were supposed to be going back to school, but I found that they 
had to get the money together. It was just so much to learn. But it was a real good find. And it's 
painful, these people brought their children to work, and I was supposed to stop them from doing 
that. Not a fun job. They cussed a lot. These are grassroots people, but because I had a practical 
nursing degree, diploma, and had been in the mainstream of working, qualified me to do the job I 
got. And it was a hard job, and I had never done outreach in that sense, but it was a fun job, so I 
became the outreach specialist, helped to look for the money. I got to sit on the learning 
committee that set up the classes for the health assistants to go to. And I complained that 
management hadn't been trained, and I developed a class for management to go to school too. So, 
I got five credits out of that towards, and kept on taking classes, until I got my two year degree-- 
 
Antoinette Johnson  15:46 
Oh, okay. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  15:47 
--in human services. And then I went on for the four year.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  15:50 
How long did you-- 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  15:52 
Before I did the two plus two type program. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  15:55 
How long did you stay at, stay there?  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  15:57 
At Children's?  
 
Antoinette Johnson  15:57 
Yeah. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  15:57 
Well, since Odessa Brown is part of Children's Orthopedic, I worked for Children's Orthopedic 
and Odessa Brown for a total of 19 years.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  15:58 
Wow, that was a long time. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  16:13 
Yeah, but see, I got to be internship, then working surgery, and then transferred to Odessa 
Brown, and move into middle management, and then move into financial, what do they call 
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them, financial coordinator, I got to be the volunteer coordinator. I mean, I had a lot, I must have 
had about seven different positions while I worked for them.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  16:43 
Yeah. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  16:44 
So even though I was at the same place, I had a lot of growth. And so eventually I raised to 9 
dollars an hour, a position that-- As an LPN trainee, you made a dollar an hour. And so I left 
Children's Orthopedic, at 9 dollars an hour. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  17:02 
Really? 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  17:02 
That wasn't that long ago, that was just 1983. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  17:06 
But as an LPN trainee, you made how much? 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  17:05 
A dollar an hour. That was the stipend you got, a dollar an hour. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  16:54 
Wasn't a lot.  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  16:52 
No, but it was something. But back then, you could buy a lot for a dollar.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  16:39 
Yeah, that's true. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  16:48 
And my husband was only making $2.50 working for the post office. Now, we look at those 
stubs and laugh. You know, we've come a long ways. I mean, you'd go to McDonald's and make 
minimum wage.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  17:34 
Uh-huh, but you know, that's not that long ago. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  17:36 
It's not that long ago, it's just yesterday. And with people talking about, "I ain't gonna work for 5 
dollars," shoot that was big money. "5 dollars an hour, you make?" I mean, my girlfriends and I, 
when we were in surgery, we used to laugh at trying to get up to time and a half to be 5 dollars 
an hour. And I think when I made 3 dollars, I thought that was great. You know that, hourly 
wage, 3 dollars an hour.  
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Antoinette Johnson  18:01 
Money, money went a lot farther too back then though, right? 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  18:05 
Oh, yeah. I mean, rent was, what, $75 a month. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  18:08 
Yeah. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  18:08 
And I was living in a nice apartment.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  18:10 
Yeah, yep, groceries were cheap?  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  18:16 
Proportionately, yeah. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  18:18 
So what did, when did you go back for your bachelor's degree? Did you go back while you were 
working at Children's or Odessa?  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  18:31 
Yeah. Since I was my own [inaudible], [?because I was a supervisor into the last year?], I took 
classes before work, during lunchtime, or after work. It took 10 years to get my degree. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  18:42 
Really? 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  18:42 
10 to 12, yeah, because I must have started 1975. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  18:46 
You were really patient. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  18:48 
I had no choice. Slow and steady will get you there.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  18:53 
Mm-hmm, you were real patient.  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  18:55 
[?I had no place to go?], except [inaudible] if I could get the, you know, [?break?] the first one, 
[inaudible] that makes sense to me. 
 
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Antoinette Johnson  19:10 
What about the kids? What did you do with the kids during this time?  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  19:15 
[Inaudible], so that worked out, if you could go to school during the workday, it's all 
incorporated. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  19:21 
Yeah. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  19:21 
So you don't have to do anything, but in terms of summer, their role was to find something to 
stay busy [?if you didn't want to, you'd go to Sunday school?]. So Vic and Vicky have been to 
everybody's camp in town, Girl Scout camp, Boy Scout camp, day care camp, the YMCA 
[inaudible] kids going on a weekend camp. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  19:49 
Tell me about Victor and Vicky and how, how you interacted with the school, and, you know, as 
far as them going through the system, were you on committees? PTA?  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  20:07 
No, I didn't do too much of that. I went to visit teachers a lot. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  20:12 
Mm-hmm, they stay in trouble in school?  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  20:14 
No. That was not a problem. I was a Girl Scout mom, Jerome was [inaudible], no, he'd go on 
camping trips. Where do we bring Boy Scouts? [Inaudible]. I mean, it was a very busy family, so 
we were always doing something, and everybody was always going four different directions. So 
I had five schedules to keep up with-- six schedules? I had their schedule, his schedule, my 
schedule. It was continuous planning, and they were always busy. So, and they weren't in trouble 
at school, I think Victor went through a trip there where he had a very young teacher that didn't 
think she could teach him math. But Victor's math ability is better than Victoria's, and Victoria's 
writing ability is better than his math-- his writing ability. So he was okay, you know, that kind 
of thing. They didn't have a lot of problems in school. And I think my most activity as a parent 
was going to Boy Scout meetings, Girl Scout meetings, and my own meetings. [Inaudible], 
everybody was busy. And now that I think back, I'm sure I did, but.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  21:11 
So your kids were pretty busy, too? 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  21:24 
Uh-huh. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  21:26 
Page 14 of 20 
 
Did you keep them busy? Or did they keep them busy?  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  21:29 
We kept each other busy. It was a [?real neat?] thing. I mean, but I think I've always worked to 
keep them busy.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  21:38 
Yeah?  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  21:36 
Because my daughter's grown, she's got her degree from [?Eagan?], and she's my public relations 
agent for Black College Fair, and my husband handles the telephone messages and keeps up with 
how many of those, and I think he's on the award committee, yeah, he is. And if, whenever 
Victor's here, he does photography work, if we need it, for the family. And Victor was always 
out doing photography because he loved doing that kind of thing. And they were always busy. I 
mean, I know I couldn't give a-- I was having a Tupperware party, I think, and it ended up being 
a jean party and an earring party. We had three parties going all at once while here at the house. 
And I guess it was fine, because they would change jeans in that half bathroom I have 
downstairs, and that woman was in the dining room, I did have a dining room [inaudible]. And in 
the living room, the lady did the Tupperware demonstration, and when she got through, the lady 
did her earring demonstration. [?Very good?].  
 
Antoinette Johnson  22:43 
So y'all really could stay busy as a family? 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  22:45 
Mm-hmm, as a family. And in between that, I remember my father came out from New York 
when my uncle died. And then, you know, [inaudible] made trips all the way over to Bellevue 
because he didn't drive, but he bought a car for my sister to drive. [Inaudible], but it was okay.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  23:07 
How did you, how did you guys communicate--I mean, with your daughter and your son--how 
did, did you guys get along very well or? 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  23:15 
Get along? 
 
Antoinette Johnson  23:17 
I mean, personality wise. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  23:18 
Get along? You know, I never thought about it like that. We got along, that's what it was 
supposed to be, wasn't it?  
 
Antoinette Johnson  23:18 
Yeah. 
Page 15 of 20 
 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  23:18 
Never thought about it any other way. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  23:30 
Well, you know how kids today are kind of mouthy? 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  23:32 
No, I don't understand it. I don't understand it. Sometimes I think I'm [inaudible]. Because my 
parents used to tell me, "I brought you here and I'll take you out of it." And they meant that. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  23:55 
Bingo.  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  23:50 
So the nation is just now beginning to understand those kind of things. I don't think they would 
have really took me out, but it felt like they might.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  23:56 
Some would, too. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  23:59 
That's right. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  24:05 
Took you out or put you out.  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  24:06 
Yeah, but I mean, you just didn't do that. I mean, I think Victoria would get mouthy every once 
in a while, but I think a backhand slap [inaudible] thought about settling that down. But don't 
children always challenge their parents sooner or later?  
 
Antoinette Johnson  24:29 
Yeah. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  24:29 
And they did, I'm sure that they must have done something like that. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  24:33 
Do you-- 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  24:33 
See, when you have children when you're young, you tend to be a parent that is more 
understanding, you're not as challenging of every little thing. In other words, there is a course, 
course that they call it, P.E.T., parent effective training. And they talk about you set your own 
child up sometimes for failure, for self-destruction, because you set up a situation where they 
Page 16 of 20 
 
may lie, cheat to be what you want them to be. And I think sometimes when you're younger, the 
bonding gets closer together, you might remember better how it was, and you don't ask those 
kind of questions you tried to facilitate talking about. And I think maybe because my parents did 
talk to me, I wasn't so much into beating, my husband didn't believe in physical violence, and 
basically a slap was about as far, or punishment was more effective. And maybe because we 
didn't move a lot, we have more of a toehold on it.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  25:34 
Yeah.  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  25:35 
And some of the organizations I grew to join, a lot of them were professional teachers and things 
like that. So the kids also had that image that they knew if they didn't tell me, I was going to hear 
about it before you told me. So it's best you tell me before somebody else tells me. So, that really 
wasn't a real problem.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  26:06 
Yeah. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  26:07 
You know, I think it's good that parents are in that kind of position-- [distracted] I don't know 
about this. You know, we got a problem here, I let this grow up too much. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  26:20 
A lot of weeds.  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  26:21 
It ain't all weeds.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  26:22 
So how old were the kids when you guys moved into this house? 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  26:27 
Fourth grade I think. What age is that? 
 
Antoinette Johnson  26:37 
It's been so long, I forgot, about eight or nine, nine?  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  26:41 
Must have been, yeah. When the kids and the dog moved into this house-- 
 
Antoinette Johnson  26:46 
You had a dog? 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  26:47 
Page 17 of 20 
 
Yes, we had Schroeder, we brought him from the other house. He lived with us for seven years. 
He should be included, because people ask me on the street, "How's Victor, how's Victoria, and 
how about Schroeder?" So, Schroeder was a very a special part of the household. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  27:10 
Mm-hmm? 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  27:10 
Yeah, he was, I mean, Schroeder went to all the schools they went to, he inspected them all. And 
when they moved from home, he went to check out the apartments. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  27:16 
What kind of-- So the kids were in love with him? 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  27:18 
Honey, that was their responsibility. If you get a dog, you should let the kids train them. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  27:20 
Yeah. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  27:23 
He was trained, that's why their father taught them how to train dogs, [?dog was trained?]. You 
know, you want a dog who doesn't jump all over [inaudible]. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  27:23 
Yeah. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  27:23 
But the funny thing, when the kids had a birthday party here, at this house, we had it in the 
basement. There was a lot of boys that came by and my husband had to go to some kind of a 
meeting, and they came to the door and they got a little belligerent, so I let Schroeder out. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  27:37 
Uh-huh. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  27:37 
And Schroeder, you know how big a labrador is, they're big as a German Shepherd. And he 
black, too, and it's dark outside, too. Schroeder ran them all up on the cars. There's a lot of cars 
out there, and they were hollering, "Get your dog! Get your dog, lady, get your dog!" I thought, 
no, unh-uh, either you go or I'm gonna call the police, but my dog was staying out. He didn't let 
nobody want to mistreat us. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  28:24 
What happened to him?  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  28:25 
Page 18 of 20 
 
He died, I had to take him down to the vet one day. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  28:28 
He, was he just old? 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  28:30 
He was old and he was going blind. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  28:33 
Was that after the kids had left? 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  28:34 
No, those guys were chickens, Jerome wouldn't take the dog down, [inaudible] wouldn't take the 
dog down. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  28:42 
They had a hard time with it, didn't they?  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  28:45 
[Inaudible] hard time with it, like I did. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  28:48 
Yeah. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  28:49 
That's why I didn't get a washer and dryer as soon as other women, because we always fix up 
something with Schroeder. Always had a dog. You know, when he'd break his hip, because he 
had a wired hip, a wired foreleg. That dog was getting as good of health care as any child. So I 
really had a set of twins and a dog. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  29:11 
They do get pretty expensive, don't they? 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  29:12 
Mm-hmm.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  29:12 
I had two of them.  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  29:16 
Did you keep them a long time? 
 
Antoinette Johnson  29:19 
Nah, about three years. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  29:19 
Page 19 of 20 
 
A couple years? What happened to them? 
 
Antoinette Johnson  29:27 
I moved up here. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  29:28 
You didn't take the dogs? [Inaudible]. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  29:28 
Yep. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  29:29 
You know, [?my blue girl?], did I tell you Peggy slept under my bed? 
 
Antoinette Johnson  29:40 
Unh-uh. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  29:40 
Peggy was a German Shepherd, and we lived on the sixth floor. And whenever my mother went 
to work, the dog was there. I mean, there was nobody getting in, because that was, that German 
Shepherd would kill you.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  29:48 
Your mother knew what she was doing. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  29:50 
Yeah, my mother and father [inaudible] for the German Shepherd. And the dog slept under my 
foot there and played out on the fire escape with me. The dog was a very important part of the 
family. It's almost like the extended family, you know. So I don't think they would have left it. 
And I talked to Victoria this morning, and she told me she was gonna have a hard time going 
wherever her and [inaudible] were gonna go for her birthday tomorrow, because she couldn't 
leave the cat or she had to take [inaudible]. I said, "Honey, you better, in a heartbeat, put that cat 
in the vet or leave the door open so he can get in."  
 
Antoinette Johnson  30:41 
Yeah. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  30:42 
I told you having that animal was going to be like having another child, or a child, because you 
get attached to it.  
 
Antoinette Johnson  30:51 
How, how old was Victor and Victoria when they left home? 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  30:55 
Well, how do you mean? They left home to college.  
Page 20 of 20 
 
 
Antoinette Johnson  31:01 
Yeah. 
 
Patricia Louise Butler  31:05 
And I'm not sure they left yet, they all got a key. 
 
Antoinette Johnson  31:09 
Uh-huh.  
 
Patricia Louise Butler  31:09 
No, they were college age. 
 